Bob Carr 'frustrated' by the Israeli lobby in Australia
Broadcast: 09/04/2014
Reporter: Sarah Ferguson
In his first interview about his book on his time as Foreign Minister, Bob Carr says he was frustrated by the influence of the Israeli lobby and makes no apologies for his preference for First Class flights.
Transcript
SARAH FERGUSON, PRESENTER: Bob Carr was Australia's Foreign minister for just a year and a half, but the Labor heavyweight found enough material to write a 500-page book on his time in the job.
In The Diary of a Foreign Minister, Bob Carr details what he sees as some of the biggest problems in Australian politics.
He's singled out the Israeli lobby, saying its influence on Australian politics has reached an unhealthy level.
He also declares that former Prime Minister Julia Gillard was selfish for not standing down from the top job.
Like all good diaries, it mixes the lofty with the mundane - his desperation for first-class upgrades on international travel, what he ate for breakfast when he got there and where to buy the best tie.
To get the gossip and the geopolitics, I met up with Bob Carr earlier today in Sydney.
Bob Carr, welcome to 7.30.
BOB CARR, FORMER FOREIGN MINISTER: Pleasure to be with you.
SARAH FERGUSON: The Prime Minister arrives in China today, having announced closer Defence ties with Japan on the way. What sort of reception is Tony Abbott going to get from the Chinese?
BOB CARR: They have been satisfied that the Prime Minister's retreated from what he had said earlier, namely that Japan is an ally of Australia. That was important to them. It was a mistake to describe Japan as an ally and the Prime Minister has beaten a retreat from that and that's sensible. He should be given credit. The Chinese will write that off as the missteps of a new government. I think we've got to think carefully about an Australian prime minister turning up at a national security meeting of the Japanese cabinet. Now what message is that meant to convey? It is in Australia's interests to be strictly neutral when it comes to the territorial disputes in which China's involved and to urge both sides to peacefully resolve those disputes.
SARAH FERGUSON: Let's go to the book. The strongest criticism of all in the book is aimed at the Melbourne Jewish lobby. Now, there are lobby groups for every cause under the sun. What's wrong with the way that group operates?
BOB CARR: Well the important point about a diary of a Foreign minister is that you shine light on areas of government that are otherwise in darkness and the influence of lobby groups is one of those areas. And what I've done is to spell out how the extremely conservative instincts of the pro-Israel lobby in Melbourne was exercised through the then-Prime Minister's office. And I speak as someone who was in agreement with Julia Gillard's agenda on everything else. But I've got to say, on this one, I found it very frustrating that we couldn't issue, for example, a routine expression of concern about the spread of Israeli settlements on the West Bank. Great blocks of housing for Israeli citizens going up on land that everyone regards as part of a future Palestinian state, if there is to be a two-state solution resolving the standoff between Palestinians and Israelis in the Middle East.
SARAH FERGUSON: You're saying that the Melbourne Jewish lobby had a direct impact on foreign policy as it was operated from inside Julia Gillard's cabinet?
BOB CARR: Yeah, I would call it the Israeli lobby - I think that's important. But certainly they enjoyed extraordinary influence. I had to resist it and my book tells the story of that resistance coming to a climax when there was a dispute on the floor of caucus about my recommendation that we don't block the Palestinian bid for increased non-state status at the United Nations.
SARAH FERGUSON: They're still a very small group of people. How do you account for them wielding so much power?
BOB CARR: I think party donations and a program of giving trips to MPs and journalists to Israel. But that's not to condemn them. I mean, other interest groups do the same thing. But it needs to be highlighted because I think it reached a very unhealthy level. I think the great mistake of the pro-Israel lobby in Melbourne is to express an extreme right-wing Israeli view rather than a more tolerant liberal Israeli view, and in addition to that, to seek to win on everything, to block the Foreign Minister of Australia through their influence with the Prime Minister's office, from even making the most routine criticism of Israeli settlement policy using the kind of language that a Conservative Foreign secretary from the UK would use in a comparable statement at the same time.
SARAH FERGUSON: Now, in that period, you give a very frank account of cabinet discussions - the cabinet discussions about a vote on the status of Palestine in the UN. Now during those cabinet discussions, you effectively rolled Julia Gillard. Do you have any qualms about revealing the details of those cabinet discussions?
BOB CARR: Yeah, one would have to think seriously about that, and I did, but on balance, I think that the public's right to know how foreign policy is made, how cabinet works, outweighs any other considerations. And the value of a diary written so close to the events is that Australians get a better idea of how government works.
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SARAH FERGUSON: Let's just go back to some of the big foreign policy issues that you talk about throughout the book. You're very critical of US wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. We've just had elections in Afghanistan, quite successful ones with a high turnout, despite a very sustained campaign by the Taliban in the lead up. You said this: "After 12 years of war, it's been a waste. Huge armies mobilise the largest coalition in history for nothing." Is that view too bleak, do you think?
BOB CARR: One very candid Australian said to me, "If I'd been given a few buckets of money, I could have gone up there to Uruzgan Province and achieved everything we achieved by military endeavour with bribes of local chieftains." That might be too brutal and he might have spoken with exaggeration for effect, but I suspect there's an element of truth.
SARAH FERGUSON: On Iraq, again, hugely critical of that war, you say that Donald Rumsfeld amongst others should be put on trial. Are you seriously talking about a war crimes trial for US officials?
BOB CARR: No, that's a rhetorical point. But I cannot believe the suffering, the dislocation. Four million refugees, for example, a cost of trillions to the US, a weakened US, strengthened enemies of America, like Al-Qaeda in Iraq, as a result of this flight of fancy that took America into that war, with Australia shamefully at its side, yelping like a pet poodle.
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To read or watch the full interview click below
http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2014/s3982168.htm